DON GONYEA, HOST:
The conclave to elect the next pope begins in just a few days, and a lot of people are thinking about what it will mean for the future of the Catholic Church. One of them is Maria Ressa. She's a Nobel Peace Prize laureate and advocate for press freedom, who gained notoriety for covering the brutal regime of Rodrigo Duterte, the former president of the Philippines. Ressa also met with Pope Francis multiple times, along with other Nobel Prize winners, to discuss some of the world's most pressing issues. My colleague Scott Detrow sat down with her recently to discuss the upcoming conclave and how the legacy of Pope Francis might shape it.
SCOTT DETROW, BYLINE: When you think about the papacy, this is a position that has over the years, at times, reinforced income inequality, reinforced the patriarchy.
MARIA RESSA: Yeah.
DETROW: It has also, at points, been a shining example of fighting for more equality...
RESSA: Yeah.
DETROW: ...Of fighting to include the poor, include the environment...
RESSA: Yeah.
DETROW: ...You know? It depends on the person. It depends on the time. I'm wondering, you, as somebody who spends so much time thinking about this rise of global authoritarianism, who thinks about the technology side of it, the government side of it - what to you is the role, the power of somebody in the papacy to set an agenda and to have such a prominent position to say things, to convene people? Like, what to you is the most important aspect of that?
RESSA: It's 1.4 billion Catholics around the world. It's a large community. And let's just talk about some of the things you pointed out what Pope Francis did, right? Like, the first was he connected income inequality with climate change. He pushed the boundaries to be as inclusive as possible. So whoever is selected by the conclave can push the church in either direction. So look, Pope Francis was a crucial conservative ally of progressive forces around the world.
DETROW: What do you mean by that, a conservative ally of progressive forces?
RESSA: 'Cause the Catholic Church is conservative in general (laughter), right? Like, but it can go much further. It could be more progressive. And he had this - he tried to make life better for everyone.
DETROW: There is a lot of worry among people who did cheer on or were heartened by Pope Francis' papacy. There is a lot of worry that the Catholic Church could go in the same direction that so many governments around the world have gone...
RESSA: ...Have done.
DETROW: ...Over the past decade.
RESSA: Yeah, absolutely.
DETROW: Do you share that worry?
RESSA: Absolutely. And you'll see this in who - as some of Pope Francis' own political battles inside the church were against the conservative bishops and cardinals, and some of them in America, right? So yes, of course, it's - there's a rising tide globally, and that conclave will be important. But again, look how he changed the church by changing the makeup of the people of the conclave. And that's important. So again, when I've looked at some of the informal surveys that they've had, like, there are people who have been steeped - Pietro Parolin, who...
DETROW: The secretary of state.
RESSA: The secretary of state. And probably, you know, to people watching, the insiders, he's No. 1, but very close No. 2, a cardinal from the Philippines who Pope Francis elevated through his power, right? Cardinal Tagle would not have been there.
DETROW: I'd love to ask you about him because, like you said, he's on that list of half dozen or - and we truly have no idea. Historically, sometimes, like Pope Francis...
RESSA: They're - right.
DETROW: ...It's the person that nobody was focusing on, but...
RESSA: Right, right, right.
DETROW: ...But Cardinal Luis Antonio Tagle - he was the Archbishop of Manila. Over the past decade or so, he has had a role in Rome. What should we know about him?
RESSA: No. 1, he's really funny (laughter). No. 2, he's progressive values. He was criticized in the Philippines for not taking a strong enough position against Duterte, but he did speak out against it, and in many ways, he speaks from the heart, if that makes sense, right? Like, so I last saw him at the Vatican at the beginning of the Jubilee in January, and he chuckles. This is a man I know well. When I took over the largest news organization in the Philippines, he had a - he was part of our morning program. Starts the day cheerfully - he makes religion approachable to everyone.
DETROW: You know, so much of the focus at this point, when a new pope has not been elected and we know that 135 people are meeting in a very beautiful closed room to make a decision...
RESSA: The conclave.
DETROW: ...It's a geographic focus - where should the next pope come from? Do you agree with the argument that the future of this institution is in Asia, is in countries like the Philippines?
RESSA: It's hard for me. I mean, it's hard for me to answer something like that when, as a Filipino, of course, I'll say yes.
DETROW: Yeah.
RESSA: But I would like a leader who takes us into the future, a pope who will not bring us back to the Dark Ages, who will take what Pope Francis has built. You know, it's funny. When he was asked about what his legacy is, he didn't respond. He said, my legacy is the church, right? So I hope for a church that is more inclusive, that gives us the spiritual guidance we all need in this crazy world today.
DETROW: That is journalist and Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Maria Ressa, who met several times with Pope Francis. Thank you so much.
RESSA: Thanks for having me. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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