Socrates Exchange: What does Love of Country Mean?

I was raised to believe that being of service to my fellow citizens and to the world was the way to BE an American. My family is filled with teachers (from elementary to college professors), nurses, soldiers, officers of the law and attorneys. Love of country, to me, means making my country a better place. Love of country, to me, means being an American in the world who makes the world a better place. Love of country, to me, means pariticipating in the political life of my country and advocating for the change I think makes my country and the world a better place

My family has roots in Ireland, France, Japan, China, and the US. For me, "love of country" means an extension of "love of family" and its associated "place". For those feeling "love of country" it is a warm emotion triggered by considering the place of family. For governments however, it is a lever applied to expand the circle to include the entire governed region, for the purpose of coercing aligned behaviors with a governmental purpose.

Memorized in High School - 1958
Author Unknown
Breathes there a man with soul so dead
Who never to himself hath said
"This is my home, my native land"
Whose heart hath ne're within him burned
As home his footsteps he hath turned
From wandering on a foreign land.

I always recite that as I cross the border from Calais Maine to St. Stephen, NB, my hometown.

I suggest that you explore the balance between individual freedom and social responsibility. In what ways should granite Staters be each others "keepers" or guardians, or expect others to support us? In what realms should we take care of ourselves and be allowed to do as we please? David Erikson Poor Farm Rd. Weare, N.H.

I'd always thought of love of country sort of like "love it or leave it." But now I question that -- which is good, right? Professor Phillips talked about love of country (or anything else) as a relationship, and a commitment -- got me to thinking that love of country in a democracy is to question your commitments (individual and social) from time to time, rather than go along with them blindly. So I'm questioning our commitments to the incursions in Middle East, asking if they are the best way to advance freedom's cause, and I'm questioning my own commitments (mostly to making money these days) and weather I'm doing anything of real worth to make sure that this world we call Spaceship Earth will be onn a sounder footing which my time is up. This was the most meaningufl program I've heard on radio. I normally don't listen to public radio,,just happened upon it . THank you. Let me know when the next radio Socrates CAfe is. please!

"Love of country" is a dangerous delusion. All right, that's painting with a broad brush, but sometimes that's necessary with a broad subject. It's dangerous because it's a special case of the very dangerous practice of falling in love with our abstractions. And that's dangerous in two ways: first, the very nature of an abstraction like "country" is that it hides the details of something real and complex, and replaces it with something simplified and artificial – a capital-C "Country" becomes a replacement for an assemblage of human beings, which is the true reality. Second, abstractions can be ambiguous – what for a child might be joy in colorful flags or fireworks or a story about a cherry tree can be for others the Constitution, patriotism, The Team, l'Etat, Das Reich. It can be very dangerous to adore the Symbol without keeping in mind the souls it represents. Appropriately enough, it was the Greeks who taught us to deal in abstractions; this has given us the sciences, but also The Crusades and an infestation of isms.

And then there's the matter of fuzziness of language – bravo to the man who called attention to the fact that there are many kinds of love and words for it. It can mean sexual attraction, parental protection, joy, delight, esprit de corps, loyalty, pride, rapture (religious and otherwise), culinary preference – too much for a single word! And bravo, too, to the lady who said, "Oh my God!" upon returning to her several homes, showing that "country" goes far beyond the limitations of geography or politics. As to Barbara, born under Hitler and his Aryan abstractions, I share her hope that someday we'll all be able to utter an "Oh my God!" of joy upon setting foot in any country on the planet.

Perhaps "love of country", or the imperative "love your country", should be replaced by "know your country", which in turn could be seen as an extension of the Greek "know thyself." If we try to understand what we and our compatriots have done and are doing in the name of "Country", both good and bad, then we just might treat each other better. If we do that, then love will take care of itself.

I was amazed to hear Chris Phillips, who has written books on Socrates, say he did not know the origin of the word patriotism. It comes from the Latin "patria," as in "America est patria mea," the first sentence I learned in high school Latin.

Jean Gogolin

I love the comments so far, this is great. I don't think love of country is a dangerous delusion, only one must tread carefully to make sure one is loving it in the right way, expressing that love in ways that don't trample on others elsewhere, but that elevate them. That means we can't delude ourselves into thinking we should grab someone else's oil or other resources (like we did with our own Native Americans) and convince ourselves that in the long run it's best for them if we run the show, because we're really all about being beacons of freedom (tho' our actions prove otherwise). I didn't much like the agenda of first two callers, but after that, things got really thoughtful, lots of perspectives that have me thinking and thinking and thinking. I'm glad Laura and Chris are doing a series out of this. A question I'd like to explore (because my six year old asked me and I don't think I came up with a good answer) is, "Isn't it better to lie if the truth would hurt someone's feelings?"

That comment above about C. Phillips doesn't seem fair to me. maybe he didn't have Latin? (i didn't) But Latin is not Greek, so not Socrates relate,d, so why should anyone be amazed? The host of show didn't know either.

Love of country is almost synonymous with patriotism. Patriotism implies that it is the fatherland (pater) that we are loyal to, and therefore we are loyal to and defined by the men at the top, and the land within the geographical boundaries that they can control.

I propose another paradigm: matriotism - where the primary loyalty is to the land, animal and plant life and well-being of the people. Where love of mother earth is the highest good.

Hmm… what does it mean to have love of country? Well what does it mean to love for that matter? And then what is a country? Is it the boarders? The People? The government or the ideas and ideals that a country represents. Plato/Socrates (as Plato wrote The Republic but Socrates is the protagonist they are used synonymously) would define love of country (city, as stated in The Republic) as one who is minding their business/ techne` (here business is used as ones job). In short, everyone is doing their responsibility to help promote the well being of his/her country. To be precise that’s Plato’s definition of Justice, but to me isn’t that what you want in a country? Therefore, can it not be said that be you being a Just person, minding your techne`, you are showing your love for your country? As mentioned before we assign the term love to many things, but can it not be said that if we truly love something or someone we show them the utmost respect? If you truly loved something or someone why would you want to disrespect them/it? Thus, if a carpenter has love for his country he will be a carpenter, not say for example a biologist, a business person would stick to business and someone with the techne` of governing or ruling would stick to just that. So by the majority voting for someone to be president, are we loving our country because we are fulfilling our right given to us, or doing the country a great injustice since people are such poor judge of characters. Who are we to choose or follow a leader based on “Talk of many things, of Cabbages and Kings” (Carroll Lewis, Through the Looking Glass), that is to say that we are told many promises of this or that only to be “eaten” later on because we believed them. For more proof of this I direct you to Plato’s conversation about Justice with Thasymacus and the election that took place 4 and 8 years ago.
If following a “leader”, who’s techne’/job skill may not be leading, is not love of country, could it be that following its ideals is loving and respecting your country? To analyze this we should look at our countries mission statements, i.e. the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. The Declaration states that if a country becomes self-destructive that it is the right of the people to destroy the government and establish a new one. It also mentions that this should not be done for a light cause. As the English and French had just ended warring and the English were broke, who couldn’t blame the colonist for not wanting to pay taxes for the many reasons they had (for the sake of length (too late) I direct you to the history books). So why is it that a man in New Hampshire, Live Free or Die (for there are far worse things to fear then death, Gen. John Stark) was doing the same thing for similar reasons (as only Ed Brown knows his reasons, just as only a bat knows what it’s like to be a bat (Thomas Nagel) I will have to go by what I read in the news) is arrested? Shouldn’t he be praised for his love of country and the ideals it was built on? So if that isn’t Love of Country what else could it be and is it all that great to have in the first place?
Countries consist physically of boarders and it seems that all these boarders have ever done is create war, “this is my land and I want yours too”. Even Plato had war in his Republic, hence the Guardian position of the city. What do these magic boarders do? And I say magic because when I cross a state line I don’t see a line and when I erase the lines on a map that state is still there, this goes back to the abstractness that humans invent. I guess these borders would serve to separate ways of life. The Canadian way of life stops at the border where we start our American way of life. Thus, borders create segregation and segregation usually always leads to wars “for the love of ones country” or way of life. It’s one of the main reasons The Great War aka World War I was fought, fierce nationalism in the Balkins. Why can’t we realize that we are all humans, why do we hold onto this abstract thinking, which is up for opinion but held as truth/fact or in Plato’s case The Good. I have a suggestion which I got from reading another philosopher, Thea Alexander and even Jesus before her, have loving acceptance of all things, that means no exceptions. And going back to what you do with loved ones and things, you respect them. For being “the most intelligent creature on the planet” why cant we get past our abstract differences and do our true techne` which is the same for everyone, being human. I’m willing to bet that if we listened to those who have said it, Jesus, Socrates/Plato, John Lenon, Bob Marley, to name a few, we would be better off then we are. So what is love of country, my educated guess would be the downfall of a species in the long run.

Laura, I am a long time listener, and I marvel at the quality of your programs. However, the Socratese Cafe program I heard a few days ago got me riled up. I have been thinking about it ever since, and every day, I get madder. It was a sophomoric exercise, despite your best attempts to give it some substance and class. THe man is an uneducated idiot and not worthy of doing a series with you.. He may know some Greek, but even a rudimentary education should have given him the Latin root for "patriotism" Really!
I hope you will consider unplugging the proposed monthly series. I am all for trying new things, but ...!

The men who have led the nation
through the years and struggles,
the hope and promise
within the dream that is America.
That seed planted in this fertile soil
nurtured, guarded, by each generation
successive and cumulative,
changing but constant.
Humans, with flaws, passion;
with vision and gravitas.
Stewards of our land for years only
but for posterity as well,
a legacy for our future.
In their hands, we have entrusted
that which is America.

February 19, 2008
www.raymondafoss.blogspot.com

To love our county,
right or wrong,
isn’t to put our heads in the sand;
but to stand by our nation
through thick and thin,
believing in it always,
working to change our country
to more fully realize
our loftier ideals

To lead our nation, they were called,
chosen by the people, to govern,
to guide our land, in their time
To plead from the bully pulpit,
move our country through legislation,
wage war and foster peace,
they added their voice, their mark
in the sands of time

For the love of country
they fought and died
for the beliefs we hold dear
the words written in ink,
carved in stone
etched in blood on battlefields
near and far
Our aspirations, our hopes
our dreams for our land
Willing to sacrifice, to struggle
to stand in the breach;
To stand for our nation,
even when we together fall short,
when our actions fall short
of our loftier ideals,
even then they stand in the field,
in harm’s way, for us.

For our nation,
they bled, they died,
stood strong against
our common enemies
Journeying to far off lands,
warring seas, unknown dangers.
For this place,
this people, these ideals
they heeded the call,
serving our nation
one and all.